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User talk:Babbersduh
Rei is the daughter of Yui Ikari? Please provide a source that contradicts Rei being a clone from Yui, i.e. what's said more or less literally in the NGE anime. If this is a Rebuild-specific case, please mark it as such while still providing a source. Thank you in advance. HPZ - O.N.E. (talk) 15:58, November 30, 2017 (UTC) :In this case the onus would be on you to provide the source - if it is not sourced in the first place, it should not be on the wiki as is standard wiki etiquette. The reason for why this section was altered was included in the update history. In addition, to keep in line with the standards of other wiki pages concerning Yui or Rei, the latter is not mentioned as the clone of the former, and therefore, it should not be written. Please refrain from reverting any more edits on this matter until you can source the claim that Rei is a clone of Yui from material within the original series. Thank you. Babbersduh (talk) 19:51, November 30, 2017 (UTC) ::So, as you both probably noticed, I locked the Yui Ikari article to avoid further edit warring. It is all but spelled in the original series that Rei is in fact a copy of Yui (Episode 21), but if you need actual, factual proof of it, please refer to the Red Cross Book, specifically the glossary. In there you'll find "Her body was created from the salvaged remains of Yui Ikari after Yui was taken into the Eva, and numerous Rei clones were then prepared in Terminal Dogma so that when one Rei dies she can be replaced by another. The present Rei is the third. The first was killed by Dr. Naoko Akagi, and the second died in battle against the 16th Angel." ::So, yes, she's a clone, not a daughter. You could argue that using the word "Clone" to refer to a copy that only resembles the original instead of being a full copy of it wasn't the smartest move made by the creators, but semantics is not this wiki's bussiness. They say it, we publish it. ::HPZ is right. ~''The Maverick 013'' 20:21, November 30, 2017 (UTC) :::I'd like to draw your attention towards what you said yourself: "It is all but spelled" - in other words, no such claim was ever made in the original series, nor by it's creators. This is an intelligent move by the creators because what Rei is, fundamentally denies the concept of being someone's clone. They did not overstep their boundary here. :::So why daughter? Well, if Rei isn't claimed to be Yui's clone, but is still made using her salvaged remains - she must be related to Yui. When someone is related to someone in this way, we call them offspring, or in Rei's case - a daughter. Although a better wording would be the "blood relative" as is used on other pages. :::This isn't a matter of semantics, it's a matter of cold hard facts. If Rei isn't said to be a clone of Yui - then we shouldn't write it either. In fact, doing so only complicates matters and lessens the value of the work, seeing as Rei doesn't qualify as a clone in-universe or otherwise. :::I'd also call into attention the Schizo/Parano interviews in relation to the original series, where people explain that Rei is at best - 50% Yui, and others say she has both the DNA of Angels and Humans - human here being Yui. :::The bottom line is - they didn't say it, and so neither should we. HPZ is wrong. Babbersduh (talk) 21:35, November 30, 2017 (UTC) ::::To what Mav' said, I'll add that the eventuality of Rei never being mentioned as a "clone" of Yui wouldn't mean that her being the "daughter" of Yui Ikari is a fact. You still didn't provide a source claiming sensu stricto that Rei is mentioned as the daughter of Yui. What you wrote is mainly speculation and/or interpretation. You could have just removed the clone part instead, said why you did it and that would have been a better way of trying to make constructive editing. HPZ - O.N.E. (talk) 21:40, November 30, 2017 (UTC) ::::Nor did you or the original author of this page - sensu strictu. What can be added without source can also be removed without a source. 'However '''I do agree that just removing the clone part would have been better, although I merely undid a previous edit since I saw it the previous value made more sense. I still argue that it does, as can be seen above. Shall we settle on "blood relative" as I argued earlier, since that then fits the other articles better as well? Furthermore, it's not true that it is speculation or interpretation. It's a matter of fact that Rei never was claimed to be Yui's clone. This is not speculation, conjecture or interpretation. It's the facts, hence it'd be speculation to claim Rei to be Yui's clone in this case. Blood relative fits better anyhow.Babbersduh (talk) 21:47, November 30, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Yes, don't do . Now, about the clone/daughter thing, even if we were to accept she is a "daughter", that means the primary Rei we followed form episode one to EOE is still a clone of Rei I. She would be a "Clone of Yui's daughter". And in order for her to be a daughter, she would need to have Gendo's DNA as well. If an organism contains only DNA that is identical to its parent organism, it's still a . Its a natural occurrence in real life. She'd be a clone anyways. Or a "reanimated corpse". ~The Maverick 013'' 21:55, November 30, 2017 (UTC) :::::::Not at all - you see, Rei I, II or III, they are all genetically identical. They are the same person, character, and the bodies are clones. This is consistent with the GMO-process we use today, and of course, back in the 90's and earlier. She'd be Yui's daughter by virtue of being created with her DNA. Gendo needs not involve himself, other as her foster-parent - which he has by raising her. The biological "father" would necessarily be the other half of Rei's DNA, or other foreign Angel DNA. "Rei" also happens to be the name Yui and Gendo would have chosen for their daughter. But as was claimed by the creators, and backed up by the series - Rei differs biologically from Yui, and therefore cannot be a clone of her. Yui is a normal human, but Rei happens to not be according to the series. If Rei was Yui's clone, she'd have the same hair, eye color, and exhibit none of the Angel-like traits she does. It's an interesting subject, but without delving too deeply into it, it suffices to say that since Rei was never claimed to be a clone of Yui, a wiki page on Yui should not state that she's a de facto clone of Yui either. It's more reasonable to define the relation as "Blood Relative" as is done in other similar articles on the topic. 'This is my recommendation. 'Babbersduh (talk) 22:09, November 30, 2017 (UTC) So, would you guys agree on changing the term to "copy" or something in the same vein? Applying real life logic to Anime generally ends in blood and tears, so delving too deep into this would end in an endless debate. The reason we don't use "Blood relative" is because it implies to the first time visitors the Rei is in fact a relative, in the "totally-normal-family" way. ~''The Maverick 013'' 22:19, November 30, 2017 (UTC) :Copy wouldn't work either. Technially, all Lilin are copies of Lilith downward in time as well. The "relations" field itself should be reconsidered. Does it describe familial relations or does it describe personal relations? Rei has no relationship with Yui. Rei has no familial link with Gendo other as him serving as her foster parent, but he's still there on Rei's page for instance. If it does indeed describe "family relations", then we'd still have to accept that "daughter" is a good description, or blood relative. Why not strike Rei from Yui's relations field entirely? But I digress - I think "Blood Relative" is fine. Shinji is Gendo's "Blood Relative" and there's nothing ''normal about THAT relationship. Babbersduh (talk) 22:27, November 30, 2017 (UTC) ::I'm normally against copying what they do, we have too much content to de-wikify, but we could go the Evageeks route and just add "Yui Ikari (derived from)". That seems fine and, well that's what she is, a derivative from Yui, not a 100% daughter, not a 100% clone. It's an user friendly term that keeps the ambiguity and peculiarity of her condition ~The Maverick 013'' 23:16, November 30, 2017 (UTC) ::::Agreed. Babbersduh (talk) 23:26, November 30, 2017 (UTC) :::::By the way, I'm keeping the article as it currently is until I hear HPZ's opinion on the matter, if both of you agree, I'll unblock it. ~''The Maverick 013'' 23:43, November 30, 2017 (UTC) That's fine by me. If you absolutely want to de-wikify the content, go with "Rei Ayanami (derivative)" for Yui's article and "Yui Ikari (derivative)" for Rei's one. I guess that'd work. HPZ - O.N.E. (talk) 00:17, December 1, 2017 (UTC) :Yui's page has been edited. Thanks to both of you for keeping it civil. So, HPZ, about other issues... ~''The Maverick 013'' 04:15, December 1, 2017 (UTC) ::Oh, these aren't really an issue, I think. Quatre, Cinq and Six are clones to each other and to Rei herself. They're just like the clones we see in Episode:23, except they weren't destroyed. They're essentially just like Rei, i.e. derived from Yui. I'll modify the articles to reflect that. HPZ - O.N.E. (talk) 09:36, December 1, 2017 (UTC)